Post by: Ben Rodenburg on 25 July 2006, 10:31:55
Pat Metheny on Kenny G:
Question:
Pat, could you tell us your opinion about Kenny G - it appears you were quoted as being less than enthusiastic about him and his music. I would say that most of the serious music listeners in the world would not find your opinion surprising or unlikely - but you were vocal about it for the first time. You are generally supportive of other musicians it seems.
Pat's Answer:
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. There was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records.
I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music.
But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune - consistently sharp.
Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years. And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement.
Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.
And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.
As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well.
But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until recently".
Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music.
This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him - and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.
But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.
His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.
Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay.
Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is different.
There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that. (I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines, etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.)
NOTE: this post is partially in response to the comments that people have made regarding a short video interview excerpt with me that was posted on the internet taken from a tv show for young people (kind of like MTV)in poland where i was asked to address 8 to 11 year old kids on terms that they could understand about jazz. while enthusiastically describing the virtues of this great area of music, i was encouraging the kids to find and listen to some of the greats in the music and not to get confused by the sometimes overwhelming volume of music that falls under the jazz umbrella. i went on to say that i think that for instance, kenny g plays the dumbest music on the planet – something that all 8 to 11 year kids on the planet already intrinsically know, as anyone who has ever spent any time around kids that age could confirm - so it gave us some common ground for the rest of the discussion. (ADDENDUM: the only thing wrong with the statement that i made was that i did not include the rest of the known universe.) the fact that this clip was released so far out of the context that it was delivered in is a drag, but it is now done. (its unauthorized release out of context like that is symptomatic of the new electronically interconnected culture that we now live in - where pretty much anything anyone anywhere has ever said or done has the potential to become common public property at any time.) i was surprised by the polish people putting this clip up so far away from the use that it was intended -really just for the attention - with no explanation of the show it was made for - they (the polish people in general) used to be so hip and would have been unlikely candidates to do something like that before, but i guess everything is changing there like it is everywhere else. the only other thing that surprised me in the aftermath of the release of this little interview is that ANYONE would be even a little bit surprised that i would say such a thing, given the reality of mr. gs music. this makes me want to go practice about 10 times harder, because that suggests to me that i am not getting my own musical message across clearly enough - which to me, in every single way and intention is diametrically opposed to what Kenny G seems to be after.
Post by: the martin on 25 July 2006, 16:42:56
Iedereen mag van de G-master vinden wat die wil..
Ik vind het alleen storend dat zijn muziek als jazz verkocht wordt, terwijl het eigenlijk als pop-muziek moet worden gezien.
Verder vind ik de genoemde CD errug slecht. But that's my opinion.
Hij heeft daarvoor best een aantal leuke CD's gemaakt die ik zo 1 a 2 keer per decenium wel eens op wil zetten.
Post by: Ellis11 on 02 August 2006, 23:55:39
Daarnaast heeft Metheny meer prijzen in de wacht gesleept dan K.G aan {verschillende} songs heeft gemaakt.
Voor degenen die het willen weten, Metheny stond op zijn 17de al les te geven aan diverse conservatoria
Quote from: "saxy-benny"
ik vind wel dat er een kern van waarheid in zit :D
Pat Metheny on Kenny G:
Question:
Pat, could you tell us your opinion about Kenny G - it appears you were quoted as being less than enthusiastic about him and his music. I would say that most of the serious music listeners in the world would not find your opinion surprising or unlikely - but you were vocal about it for the first time. You are generally supportive of other musicians it seems.
Pat's Answer:
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. There was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records.
I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music.
But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune - consistently sharp.
Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years. And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement.
Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.
And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.
As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well.
But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until recently".
Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music.
This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him - and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.
But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.
His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.
Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay.
Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is different.
There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that. (I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines, etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.)
NOTE: this post is partially in response to the comments that people have made regarding a short video interview excerpt with me that was posted on the internet taken from a tv show for young people (kind of like MTV)in poland where i was asked to address 8 to 11 year old kids on terms that they could understand about jazz. while enthusiastically describing the virtues of this great area of music, i was encouraging the kids to find and listen to some of the greats in the music and not to get confused by the sometimes overwhelming volume of music that falls under the jazz umbrella. i went on to say that i think that for instance, kenny g plays the dumbest music on the planet – something that all 8 to 11 year kids on the planet already intrinsically know, as anyone who has ever spent any time around kids that age could confirm - so it gave us some common ground for the rest of the discussion. (ADDENDUM: the only thing wrong with the statement that i made was that i did not include the rest of the known universe.) the fact that this clip was released so far out of the context that it was delivered in is a drag, but it is now done. (its unauthorized release out of context like that is symptomatic of the new electronically interconnected culture that we now live in - where pretty much anything anyone anywhere has ever said or done has the potential to become common public property at any time.) i was surprised by the polish people putting this clip up so far away from the use that it was intended -really just for the attention - with no explanation of the show it was made for - they (the polish people in general) used to be so hip and would have been unlikely candidates to do something like that before, but i guess everything is changing there like it is everywhere else. the only other thing that surprised me in the aftermath of the release of this little interview is that ANYONE would be even a little bit surprised that i would say such a thing, given the reality of mr. gs music. this makes me want to go practice about 10 times harder, because that suggests to me that i am not getting my own musical message across clearly enough - which to me, in every single way and intention is diametrically opposed to what Kenny G seems to be after.
Post by: SFANX on 03 August 2006, 00:43:50
maar het overdubben van oude unieke nrs :smt078 :oops: :twisted: :smt076 not done, en zeker niet voor :smt100.
Pat gaat nu nog meer studeren en dat levert vast en zeker een leuke tegenhanger op waar ik wel naar uitkijk :smt026 :wink: leven en laten leven zou ik zeggen :D
Post by: Smelly Jelly on 03 August 2006, 08:54:12
Post by: =SaX=Erik on 06 August 2006, 10:24:21
Quote from: "pax"
Zoals Pat het beschrijft lijkt het wel een competitie tussen muzikanten........................
........Dus voor hen die nog niet lang de sax hanteren, een goeie toon en 5 noten op de juiste plaats en je bent al een heel eind op weg.
Ik vind het hier ook op lijken...waarom zoveel woorden aan vuil maken (gelijk of niet gelijk) en waarom niet gewoon bewijzen met je muziek. Iedereen wil zijn/haar stem laten horen dus doe het gewoon via je instrument...
Straks krijgen we een bericht te zien van Kenny G die zijn boekje opendoet over Pat: "Ik verdien veel meer dan Pat want mensen willen graag makkelijke muziek om naar te luisteren, dan speel ik liever niet wat ik zelf heb gemaakt, maar dan luister ik maar naar "het volk". Beter goed gekopiëerd dan slecht verzonnnen"...
Enneh....welkom hier Pax :)
Post by: Daan on 06 August 2006, 13:53:50
Simpel je mag hem of je mag hem niet...
Schijnt wel één van de best verkopende muziekant van de USA?.
Ik heb nog steeds ergens een album op mijn computer staan van hem :) .
Post by: Ben Rodenburg on 06 August 2006, 14:16:05
de welbekende frans bauer heeft met zn (ozo afschuwelijke) hit : Heb je even voor mij, de nederlandse top 40 verovert en kreeg het voor elkaar dat hij in iedere discotheek minstens 2 keer per week te horen was!
en om nou te zeggen dat bauer muziek van die hoogstandjes zijn...!!??
Post by: Ellis11 on 06 August 2006, 19:22:41
Ik vrees dat hier appels en peren worden vergeleken. Ieder doet zijn ding waar die zich het best bij voelt. De vergelijking moet MUZIKAAL gemaakt worden. Over muziek valt namelijk heel veel te twisten, niet over smaak. Dat is ook waar Metheny het in het artikel over heeft { in hoofdzaak}. Daarnaast profileert KG zich als improviser, althans tracht dat te doen, en KG wordt daar door Metheny op afgerekend net als ik mijn vakbroeders in mijn professie afreken op misstappen { en ik daar op afgerekend wordt}. Let wel, het gaat hier om professionals, niet om goed bedoelende amateurs {die ook hele mooie muziek kunnen maken overigens}
Post by: Smelly Jelly on 06 August 2006, 21:36:44
Quote from: "saxy-benny"
en om nou te zeggen dat bauer muziek van die hoogstandjes zijn...!!??
Nee inderdaad, maar moet muziek per se hoogstaand zijn? Ook de muziek van Bauer is op een bepaalde manier briljant, kennelijk heeft het iets dat miljoenen mensen aanspreekt...
Hoe verschrikkelijk wij de muziek ook vinden, er beleven miljoenen mensen plezier aan Kenny G en Frans Bauer, of putten er misschien zelfs hoop uit. Ik wil geen snob zijn die daar over gaat lopen zeuren....
Post by: Ellis11 on 06 August 2006, 22:14:00
Wie zegt dat je daarmee een snob bent. Tuurlijk, er valt niets af te dingen aan de belevingen/ hoop/ vreugde die mensen aan de muziek van Bauer beleven. That's not the issue.....
Post by: Daan on 06 August 2006, 22:39:55
Quote from: "saxy-benny"
ok, nu ga ik een leuke vergelijking maken!
de welbekende frans bauer heeft met zn (ozo afschuwelijke) hit : Heb je even voor mij, de nederlandse top 40 verovert en kreeg het voor elkaar dat hij in iedere discotheek minstens 2 keer per week te horen was!
en om nou te zeggen dat bauer muziek van die hoogstandjes zijn...!!??
Als er nou een saxofonist met een geweldige klank op een nummer was te horen tja dan zou ik nog even gaan twijfelen ;) .
Toch is Kenny G. wel de meest besprokende persoon. Vergeet ook niet iets wat nog niet 'officieel' verbeterd is van hem, zijn record van Cirular Breathing...
Er zijn mensen die zeggen dat hij nep speelt, totaal niet veel optreed. Maar hij doet wel eens mee met Live8 dacht ik, dus hij doet niet alleen verkeerde dingen :) , en dat liedje van hem Pick up the pieces luister ik graag naar...
En trouwens wat dacht je van dat ene nummer van lief klein konijntje heeft een vliegje op zijn neus, erg vervelend...
Post by: Ellis11 on 06 August 2006, 22:54:46
Ach, dat is gewoon een kunstje, goed helaas kan ik het niet want het is wel makkelijk lijkt me, maar wederom, muzikaal gezien niet echt een hoogstandje. Wel eens iemand 15 min zonder punt en komma een monoloog horen afsteken?? Ik niet... en bovendien, al zou dat gebeuren, er zou geen touw aan vast teknopen zijn...
Post by: Smelly Jelly on 07 August 2006, 08:42:09
Quote from: "Ellis11"
Ik wil geen snob zijn die daar over gaat lopen zeuren....
Wie zegt dat je daarmee een snob bent. Tuurlijk, er valt niets af te dingen aan de belevingen/ hoop/ vreugde die mensen aan de muziek van Bauer beleven. That's not the issue.....
OK, maar wat is dan de issue, kwaliteit? Dan moet je je afvragen wat je definitie van "kwaliteit" is. En wat moet er dan gebeuren met de "kwalitatief mindere muziek"? Bedenk wel dat deze muziek vaak zonder subsidie kan bestaan, in tegenstelling tot veel muziek die tot de "hogere cultuur" behoort.
Ik ben allang blij dat er een alternatief is voor de Bauers, Kenny G's en duizenden jaren 70 coverbands van deze wereld.
Post by: CBone on 07 August 2006, 10:25:45
Quote from: "Smelly Jelly"
OK, maar wat is dan de issue, kwaliteit? Dan moet je je afvragen wat je definitie van "kwaliteit" is. En wat moet er dan gebeuren met de "kwalitatief mindere muziek"?
De definitie van kwaliteit leg je in zo'n geval toch zelf vast en of FB of KG daar dan wel of niet onder valt. Voor heel mensen is het belangrijk dat iets toegankelijk is en blijkbaar lukt dat bovengenoemde heren uitstekend. Niks mis mee toch, vind je er niks aan......geen probleem, niet naar luisteren dus, geen CDtje van kopen (sorry, bedoel rippen) etc.
Laat Kenny lekker zijn ding doen, veel mensen vinden het geweldig, prima zo. En daarnaast heft eenieder het recht om ook te vertellen dat (en evt waarom) zijn muziek niet leuk is.
Hmmm, was er ook niet een Kenny in SouthPark (http://http://www.kenny.de/killed.wav).
Post by: Smelly Jelly on 07 August 2006, 18:20:28
Quote from: "CBone"
Laat Kenny lekker zijn ding doen, veel mensen vinden het geweldig, prima zo. En daarnaast heft eenieder het recht om ook te vertellen dat (en evt waarom) zijn muziek niet leuk is.
Hmmm, was er ook niet een Kenny in SouthPark (http://http://www.kenny.de/killed.wav).
Mee eens! Trouwens die Kenny uit South Park werd ook beroemd met ademen, of tenminste het feit dat ie er niet mee stopte ondanks dat ie erg vaak dood ging.
Post by: Ellis11 on 08 August 2006, 19:12:55
Post by: Daan on 08 October 2006, 20:40:57
Quote from: "Scali"
Nou, Kenny G ken ik dan niet, maar Pat Metheny zeker wel.
Valt me eerlijk gezegd een beetje tegen van hem. Ik zag hem altijd als aardige en relaxede gast, maar hier klinkt hij nogal gefrustreerd.
Naar mijn idee is die plaat met Armstrong bij hem compleet in het verkeerde keelgat geschoten, en daarom valt hij Kenny G persoonlijk aan op alles wat hij vinden kan. En blijkbaar is dat niet zo heel moeilijk.
Scali, ik vind dat je die discussie niet aan kan gaan als je Kenny G. (G. staat voor Gorelick) niet kent. Lees het www.saxontheweb.net (http://www.saxontheweb.net) forum maar daar gaan gigantische grote discussies over...
Het punt is dat veel mensen zeggen dat hij niet 'echt' kan spelen dat het fake is wat hij doet enz. En hij helemaal niet goed jazz kan spelen, en er zijn allemaal mensen die zeggen dat hij jazz speelt enz. Allemaal verschillende meningen, kortom je mag hem of je mag hem niet... Er zijn hier tig dingen over verteld, als je msn hebt wil ik je wel een album ofzo van Kenny G. sturen. Hij speelt het meeste sopraan saxofoon...
Heb jij misschien een paar albums van David Sanborn? ik heb er een paar nog niet...
Post by: Tony on 08 October 2006, 22:44:29
Wat ik slap vind is dat Pat Metheny zo negatief over Kenny G praat, dus als ene muzikant over de andere muzikant. Dan laat je je, als professionele muzikant, wel erg kennen vind ik.
Just my 2 cents...
Post by: Daan on 09 October 2006, 17:48:14
Quote from: "Scali"
De discussie op zich, over simpele of moeilijke muziek, en goede of slechte techniek ken ik al langer dan vandaag... Ik denk dat dat een beetje een strijd is tussen publiek en muzikanten.
Aan de ene kant zijn er muzikanten met een echte passie voor muziek, zoals Metheny, die muziek tot perfectie willen brengen.
Aan de andere kant heb je de wat mindere goden (zoals al genoemd, Kenny G, Frans Bauer... Nirvana lijkt me ook een goed voorbeeld, en vast nog veel meer), die niet beter willen of kunnen spelen, maar wel weten hoe ze een publiek voor zich kunnen winnen.
Dat publiek is grotendeels niet-muzikanten, die niet getraind zijn, en niet zo gauw horen of iets vals is, en het verschil tussen een pentatonische ladder of een harmonische mineur niet weten... en daar ook niet in geinteresseerd zijn.
Die luisteren heel 'puur' naar de muziek... Dingen als emotie, groove, vibe, swing etc, dat herkennen ze wel.
Ik dacht dat je het daar over hem had, maar dat heb ik dus verkeerd begrepen...
Quote from: "Scali"
Tsja, ik wou alleen aangeven dat het voor Metheny makkelijk is om andere muzikanten onderuit te halen. Bijna iedereen is toch minder dan hij, op wat voor vlak dan ook. Behalve populariteit/verkoopcijfers dan.
Ik vind het dus vooral een beetje jammer van Metheny dat hij zo reageert.
Ja dat zou zeker kunnen.
Ik denk ook dat het een kwestie van smaakverschillen.
De één vind dit mooi de ander weer heel wat anders.
En daarop oefenen ze dan en zijn ze (meestal) getalenteerd in...
En natuurlijk het oefenen de één oefent veel meer dan de ander, met andere woorden je wordt niet voor niets op het conservatorium aangenomen.
Dat is nou zo leuk van die mensen, die kunnen echt zo veel dingen spelen niet alleen omdat ze talent hebben natuurlijk maar omdat ze ervoor gaan en dus hun best hebben gedaan om dat niveau te bereiken.
Ik denk dat Kenny G. het ook echt slim aanpakt...
En ja ik vind Songbird mooi, ik vind ook muziek mooi waarbij het covers zijn.
Quote from: "KennyG.com"
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Quote from: "Scali"
Dat hij live niet goed zou kunnen improviseren, neem ik maar aan. Dat is trouwens geen schande... Gitaarvirtuoos Steve Vai gaat ook op een simpel bluesje onderuit als er gejamd moet worden. Vai komt ermee weg omdat hij verder niet met jazz geassocieerd wordt.
Ik vind het trouwens wel leuk dat je gitaristen opnoemt en zo vergelijkt met saxofonisten. Leuk, ik dacht dat Steve Vai de gitarist was die 'alles' kan spelen maar ik heb hem nog nooit jazz horen spelen...
Dat stukje over Steve Vai deed me even aan Allard Buwalda denken
Quote from: "Allard"
Maar ik vind bijvoorbeeld Slash, de gitarist van Guns 'n' Roses, helemaal te gek. Die moet je geen jazz laten spelen natuurlijk. Net zoals je een jazzgitarist niet in een hardrockband kunt neerzetten.
Voor dat hele artikel: Klik hier! (http://http://www.allardbuwalda.nl/pdf/interview.pdf)
Quote from: "Anthony"
Het maakt vrij weinig uit of iemand vind of Kenny G kan spelen of niet, z'n CD's verkopen toch en vrijwel iedereen kent 'm. Hij doet toch iets goed.
mensen zeggen dat hij niet kan spelen enz. maarja ik heb hem nooit live gehoord ofzo, niet dat ik dat vind, ik vind dat hij gewoon door moet gaan met watie doet. Alleen telkens weer een nummer als 'Songbird' of zo'n kerstliedje op een album zetten vind ik maar niks :) . Sanborn heeft ook een aantal dezelfde nummers op meerdere albums gezet... Zo zijn er meerdere natuurlijk die het proberen weer een hit te maken enz.
Post by: Ellis11 on 09 October 2006, 23:18:19
Quote
Ik val daar zelf ergens tussenin. Ik heb enorm respect voor Metheny en wat hij kan, maar zijn muziek doet me meestal weinig. Het is vaak erg gecompliceerd, waardoor ik moeite heb de muzikale ideeen te volgen... en qua vibe, groove, emotie etc is de muziek ook niet altijd even overtuigend in mijn oren.
Het is toch wat. Als je Metheny een beetje gevolgd hebt zou je weten dat dit de eerste keer is dat metheny openlijk een mede musicus afvalt. In zijn bijna 40 jarige loopbaan lijkt me dat niet echt onverdienstelijk. Ik zou de artiesten die elkaar vaker en meer zwart maken niet de kost willen geven.
Daarnaast is de muziek van Metheny vlgs mij echt niet zo super gecompliceerd als men misschien doet vermoeden. Het zijn vaak de technisch en muzikale verhalende solo's die het ingewikkeld lijken te maken. Als zijn muziek echt zo gecompliceerd was dan speelde hij echt niet twee of drie keer Vredenburg vol. Dat pleit er dus ook voor dat een heleboel mensen wel degelijk goeie oren hebben en das dan echt niet omdat ze naar Metheny gaan. Er zijn genoeg bands te noemen die onder dezelfde schare als Metheny vallen.
Het is overigens een discussie waar men nooit uitkomt.[/quote]