Van een ander form:
www.gearslutz.com heb ik volgende toelichting gekopieerd betreffende het opnemen van sax. Ik haal het hier aan omdat ongeacht de nabewerking, de bron de belangrijkste rol speelt
Ter info, eventuele feadback welke in onderstaande text wordt gegeven slaat niet op mij of andere opnames in saxforum.nl.....
Hello Igor,
I am a sax player also(Soprano,Alto,Tenor) and have been interested in the "quest" for the most kickass recording method of sax since 8 years approx and have some favorites in a lot of different styles and contexts.
The experiences I have are mostly in larger studios, where besides being a sax player/arranger I have had the opportunity to test a lot of mikes and pres with very cool people around.
I want to say first I'm not at all into smooth jazz, yet I hope to provide you some useful info.
You have a nice reedy sound,with a touch of breath and a cool vibe going on IMO but the recording is fairly thin,emphasises on more aggressive hi-mids (brassy hi-mids which you have naturally I hear, so here for me it's too accentuated and needs to be tamed in those specific frequencies: ditch that AKG 414 unless you're using it succesfully on other sources of course) and since you are projecting the sound quite strongly, the mic position tends to pick up especially what comes from the bell and the upper front part of the sax:the more direct-in-yo-face sound or "power"
(for me a LOT of the "smoothness", essence and "vibe" of the sound comes from the right side of the sax where the holes are: listened and tested carefully)
if you want a fuller, more balanced sound like you hear from yourself when playing acoustic it might be a good idea to work with 2 microphones(
or other alternatives=see below)
The results depend on a lot of things(IMHO, from experience:room,mic,cables,instrument,yourself,mouthpiece,reed, humidity, the people you work with and the mood you're in).
*For a deep,mellow,rich,broad alto-tenor tone reminiscent of certain "50's&60's jazz classics" but with more modern detail and that nearly never will sound aggressive(unless you're playing aggressively...)=
1 AEA R84 (my favorite for 75% jazz/smooth/blues/retro) aimed slightly towards the sax(+/-30°)
with the top of the mic's body at the height of the sax's neck's curve
(where the Selmer sign shines) and aimed slightly to the right side of
the sax.
1 Character preamp(Tube or SS)= the character tube pre will smoothen
the sound even more due to it's "slower" nature and will give a rich
tone(The VT737 might be a bit too much "HiFi" sounding for this
:I don't consider this one to be a character tube pre-might even
contribute even more to the aggressive I hear in your clip IMHO)
that's suitable for any style where "accuracy meets sweet & full"
Nice tube pre's for sax with AEA= UA 610-Manley-V72-TLaudio Ivory
(yes!I doubted it due to hearing several instruments recorded through
it and noticed something weird with the transients, kind of "sloppy"
or"hazey" sound(I might not be the best "describer" around..) but
on the saxes(and electric guitars) it really gave a retro touch that
suited a particular blues-funk session very well)
The SS character pre's(Neve and cousins,80's-console pre's
like SSL-DDA will be obviously faster in response and
more upfront, and more cutting through the mix.
THIS COMBO(either tube or SS)
will provide a fuller sound, not only the whole
spectrum, but also the subtleties I hear in your playing, burried away
in the clip's recording.The AEA here is amazing because it's only
one mic, yet you will hear more dimension and width then with the
AKG 414, as if the mic took as much from the front as the sides,
giving a wider image in the mix and a more pleasant sound to listen to,
albeit without the need of equing the sax too much, or at all!,
especially in those "screaming" himid freqs.
* For a "Stan Getz" vibe with lots of breath, proximity, clear & rich sound
(tenor especially-in fact ANY smooth vibe)=
1 Vintage Neumann U87 aiming at the bell(approx 70°), but the mic
height ABOVE the neck(good room sound a must) from 3-4".
Again aimed slightly to the right side of the sax
This captures a lot from the bell and right side first, as the capsule
is aimed downwards and the projecting sound of the middle keys
is less direct in that way.
This required a lot of efforts from me to get the sound right:
I really had to fill the instrument and making it resonate without
projecting too much, and playing softer then I used to to
provide an intimate,close,warm sound as if you play "in people's ears"
This allowed the engineer to give me MUCH more gain on the input
and capture a big,smooth, sound: if you just play a little softer
with stronger moments:the engineer cannot give you more gain
(or must compress the heck out of you while tracking=yuktutt)
so the full moments sound OK and the soft ones really tiny
and distant, so I had to play as soft as I had ever played and although
I felt while playin it was weird and was going to be way too soft
it gave opposite results= it was just sooo warm, big and wide.
Since then I tried whenever possible to play the softest possible
while still giving power and that was a bigger improvement to my
sound then any microphone I had ever tried(valid for lotsa other
instruments as well especially kick&snare/other horns/rhodes
guitar/bass....), though playing with
loud guitar players on the other side forced me to be able to
blow my ass off and making my horn burn...whatever.
As a complement to the Vintage Neumann 87 setup(with good room)
I don't think any decent high end pre could ruin your take, and it's
just a matter of what color,presence,fast/slow character you want.
However again I think that the Avalon is harsh and...just too weird
on sax(never had ANY good memory of a VT737, might just not suit
me at all)
I had the opportunity to try an A-designs Pacifica lately...but not on
sax g*dd*mn*d! and hearing it on vocals,keyboards,synths,bass, and
acoustic guitar made me drool like a fat pitbull just imagining this
one on sax...r....blublblub...
It sounds so smooth,detailed,deep,rich I can only think it must be a
good match for sax and good mics:ANYBODY TRIED PACIFICA ON SAX?
If you have a clip PLEASE post it !
*For an ultra wide sax with even balance and lots of details and subtleties
of playing:
2 mic set-up: 1 Vintage Neumann U87(or Gefell M900=a little smoother
but more modern sounding then U87)=FRONT
1 Gefell UM92(or Neumann U47Tube=THE side/room mic
for sax...but priceeey)= SIDE
I was sitting when using this set-up, with the alto/tenor at the right
of my legs.
The U87 was aimed at the right side keys and the bell, at the height of the neck, while the Gefell UM92 was 3-4 feet away to the right at the height of the lowest part of the sax with top of the mic body at the height
of the low B-key.
Pre=straight to DDA console pre.
Now whats' interesting here is the panning possibilities: example:
front mic=left 10%---side mic=right 30%=this gives a wiiiiide huuuge sound.
You might want to try for yourself wich panning works best in a given song.
What's more: you can blend in more "body"(side) or power(front) at taste.
The first sax experiences I had with 2 microphones(wow, this sounds like
gear-porn) where discouraging because of a rather sucky engineer,
the results being out of phase mud,bad choices of mics, resonant concrete room with one or two carpets?*!?!!? so I stayed away from it for some time not knowing it was possible to make it work beautifully.
But now whenever I record a sax, especially if I(or another) am alone=
multimics per horn in a section is a mess of omnipresent bleed, I go for two mics(not true for AEA R84=2 try urgently!!!) and the results are never disappointing, because if I want one front mike after all, I just mute the side mic, end of story.
*For any power-playing sound in songs with fat riffs-n-hooks-pumping sax solo's---whatever needs higher energy sax=
1 Vintage Neumann U87(will cut through more then the AEA R84
altough if you find your sound too bright-edgy
you might wanna use this one right away
instead of equing afterwards)
Will do very fine, while maintaining the full content of your playing,
will sit in the mix very well, will take some serious amount of SPL
if you wanna blow it through the roof(possibly distorting nicely
if you push it real hard-more like a kind of
subtle compression=that's how I hear it, is it possible?anyone?
or am I blaspheming?)
I think your sax would sound more balanced,wider,even,full with two mics
(or the AEA R84)and the subtleties in your playing could be more present then, if you want to, because you have 'em, I hear 'em far way;really adds to the depth of the music,IMO
I often wondered why we saxes would spend so much time on working the instrument to the most subtle details, and I think saxes have A LOT of subtleties to offer, if in the end all you hear is the projecting brassy sound?
(Often in pop music-mainstream, sorry poppies...)
Some styles of music don't require "subtlety", and most people who have not worked with saxes a lot, listened to intimate jazz records or simply don't think a sax sound matters THAT much(I know quite a few who don't even listen acoustically to us before miking hmmm..) are used to hear a sax sound "in" a mix and thus not hearing the detail of it like with vocals
for example=result=there won't be any attention to those details that can really color the music and add life to it, instead some of our nice frequencies will be cut off hard(lows and low mids) and the himids highs boosted like we are guitar players-all the little details will be gated away(if it's disturbing key-noises then you have to, although sometimes even those noises can be musical)=result=lot of nasal sounding-metal-duck-on-speed sound that is REALLY not how the sax sounds in real life.
I am well aware that to mix a tune you sometimes need to alter the sound extremely to make it fit in: well gentlemen take away from other guys: I've had it with this thin sounding-far away sounding saxes-push that saxy fader up and you won't regret it
Igor, If you want more specific info or some audio examples, just PM me, I'll see what I can do, hope I've been helpful, good luck with your
"quest" for the right gear,
Best,
Saxophonick
